2012-10-21 17:11:14 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> Tene / treed / imami|afk / djanatyn / anyone else who does RTS games or city builders I guess?: I'm really happy with the metagame I came up with for my city builder.
2012-10-21 17:12:01 PDT/-0700 <    chocodum> If Romney gets elected it will sooner or later be Canada's time to shine!
2012-10-21 17:12:05 PDT/-0700 <    chocodum> http://nig.gr/45o
2012-10-21 17:12:14 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> This universe is a patchwork of tiny bubble universes OSLT; think self-contained spaces the size of medium sized island or so.  Transportation between via magic, this magic is fairly well known, etc.
2012-10-21 17:13:21 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> THe problem is that portals sufficient to really connect bubbles for full-time trade and so on, i.e. folding new ones into your kingdom, are large and *permanent*.
2012-10-21 17:14:18 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> Obviously, opening yourself up like that when you're not *absolutely certain* that the other end is secure is Bad (tm).  Smaller one-way portals are not.  So you get a Total Annihilation type thing where a small scouting party is in charge of whipping new bubbles into shape.
2012-10-21 17:14:29 PDT/-0700 -!- jamesshrugged [~jamesshru@mobile-166-147-064-087.mycingular.net] has joined #jbopre
2012-10-21 17:15:32 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> The PC is a member of such a party, but Somehting Goes Wrong (tm), and ey becomes unstuck in the void; upshot is you can join any scouting party on any new world by simply possessing one of the members (i.e. that's how new maps start), but due to interference the formation of a permanent portal drives you out of the body you've possessed.
2012-10-21 17:16:44 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> You can carry across some items if you prep the items beforehand at great expense, and your knowledge, but that's it.  So each map is a totally new setup, right down to the species of the PC and opponents, but there's still continuity in the PC's skills and suchlike.
2012-10-21 17:17:09 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> Overall goal is to find some kind of uber magitech that will protect you so you can actuall ystay in a body and rule your own land and so on.
2012-10-21 17:17:30 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> What I noticed today that I *especially* like about this is it gives you an excuse to restart the research tree on each map.
2012-10-21 17:17:40 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> I've always hated that about most RTSes; it *makes no sense*.
2012-10-21 17:18:25 PDT/-0700 <@      treed> rlpowell: Alternately, you open a large gate and blitz through it with a huge hit right out front.
2012-10-21 17:18:40 PDT/-0700 <@      treed> Also, why does that reset the tech tree? Do the people who walked through the gate forget their knowledge?
2012-10-21 17:18:57 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> But it's not *quite* a restart; if the PC, on the last map, was a 12th level teleportomancer, then all you need is access to a crystal mine and you can build a teleportomancy lab from scratch, and let other people use it.
2012-10-21 17:19:26 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> 21-17:18 <@      treed> rlpowell: Alternately, you open a large gate and blitz through it with a huge hit right out front. -- The tech tree is too large; for all but *extremely* high-end civs, there's always someone out there who can hand you your ass.
2012-10-21 17:19:38 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> 21-17:18 <@      treed> Also, why does that reset the tech tree? Do the people who walked through the gate forget their knowledge? -- Ah, good point, thanks.
2012-10-21 17:19:53 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> My initial response is that the PC prefers groups of newbs because easier to control, but I need to think about that.
2012-10-21 17:21:20 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> Ah, actually, better than that; the problem is bootstrapping.  You're starting with half a dozen dudes and an arbitrary landscape, probably hostile; you need people who can make lean-to and a fire, not a particle cannon.
2012-10-21 17:21:22 PDT/-0700 <@      treed> My natural inclination would be to just do a massive build up and hit the other side hard through a large gate.
2012-10-21 17:21:34 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> You don't know hwat the other side is in advance, though.
2012-10-21 17:21:36 PDT/-0700 <@      treed> 100 dudes with heavy weapons
2012-10-21 17:21:42 PDT/-0700 <@      treed> Doesn't matter. Make the best shit you have.
2012-10-21 17:21:51 PDT/-0700 <@      treed> If you can't beat them with that, a 5-man squad isn't going to do any better.
2012-10-21 17:22:12 PDT/-0700 <@      treed> The only use case I can see for small gates and raiding parties is resources.
2012-10-21 17:22:24 PDT/-0700 <@      treed> If you can sneak in and bring resources *back* as you start to run out on your home world, that's something.
2012-10-21 17:22:35 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> Righ,t but the small portals are one-way.
2012-10-21 17:22:47 PDT/-0700 <@      treed> But if you intend to invade, there's no good reason to start small.
2012-10-21 17:22:59 PDT/-0700 <@      treed> You start big, and you hit them hard. If that fails, nothing less would have succeeded either.
2012-10-21 17:23:11 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> *nod*
2012-10-21 17:23:23 PDT/-0700 <@      treed> That's how I tend to play RTSes when I can. If there's time pressure like the other side attacking, then I can't.
2012-10-21 17:23:32 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> Note that this is'nt really an RTS.
2012-10-21 17:23:37 PDT/-0700 <@      treed> But when I can, I'll move forward slowly, build up a shitton of troops and move them all in as one.
2012-10-21 17:23:37 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> It's a city builder.
2012-10-21 17:23:40 PDT/-0700 <@      treed> And just scour the planet.
2012-10-21 17:23:52 PDT/-0700 <    djanatyn> neptunepink: SO
2012-10-21 17:23:58 PDT/-0700 <    djanatyn> WHAT MODS ARE YOU RUNNING ON YOUR CLIENT RIGHT NOW
2012-10-21 17:24:03 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> The idea is that the initial colony group goes off in a corner somewhere and builds up the resources they need to make a beachhead.
2012-10-21 17:24:07 PDT/-0700 < neptunepink> I'm not running a client right now.
2012-10-21 17:24:17 PDT/-0700 < neptunepink> I'm poking 1.4 with a stick.
2012-10-21 17:24:17 PDT/-0700 <@      treed> Why not just bring the resources through?
2012-10-21 17:24:21 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> What I had in mind was that the scouting groups aren't *expected* to survive; just some get lucky.
2012-10-21 17:24:43 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> That many many such groups are sent out, and the really fortunate ones get established enough to make contact back.
2012-10-21 17:25:09 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> 21-17:24 <@      treed> Why not just bring the resources through? -- Limitations of the portals; they have a significant cooldown time and can't send much more than a person per burst.
2012-10-21 17:25:27 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> Yes, I'm artificially restricting; that's rather the point.  :)  I have a particular gameplay in mind.
2012-10-21 17:25:31 PDT/-0700 <@      treed> Heh.
2012-10-21 17:25:44 PDT/-0700 <@      treed> Well, you need to find some means to provide pressure against the broadhead tactic.
2012-10-21 17:26:01 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> I'm *not* making this up as I go along, though; the cooldown time is in the design docs.
2012-10-21 17:26:11 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> treed: You misunderstand; you're not forming the scouting parties.
2012-10-21 17:26:30 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> You possess one of the members *after* they arrive; yo uhave no influence over their composition.
2012-10-21 17:27:11 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> "The empire has recurited yoru sorry ass to explore brave new worlds; here's a backpack; good luck".
2012-10-21 17:27:22 PDT/-0700 <@      treed> So you aren't playing the empire?
2012-10-21 17:27:26 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> No, not at all.
2012-10-21 17:27:36 PDT/-0700 <@      treed> And this isn't a means that you the player use to expand to new worlds?
2012-10-21 17:27:47 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> Nope.
2012-10-21 17:27:50 PDT/-0700 <@      treed> Ah, okay.
2012-10-21 17:27:53 PDT/-0700 <@      treed> That makes more sense then.
2012-10-21 17:27:54 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> The big portals banish you.
2012-10-21 17:28:10 PDT/-0700 <@      treed> I thought this was a "You build it, and then when you need to expand, you open gates to new worlds."
2012-10-21 17:28:11 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> You're a possessing being, and the portal is too much interference.
2012-10-21 17:28:24 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> Yeah ,that was the original design, but [everything you just said]  :D
2012-10-21 17:28:46 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> As soon as your city is established enough that the empire decides to make a permanent connection, *boom*, you'r eback in limbo.
2012-10-21 17:29:13 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> THe long-term goal is to build up enough knowledge and special limbo-treated items to build a device that can protect you from that effect, so you can start your own empire.
2012-10-21 17:29:29 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> But "Yay, my own empire!" is the *victory* condition; the game ends at that point.
2012-10-21 17:30:50 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> treed: Picking holes is *good*, in case I was unclear; feel free to not stop.
2012-10-21 17:30:57 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> Except, umm, maybe not right now cuz dinner :D
2012-10-21 17:30:57 PDT/-0700 <@      treed> *nod*
2012-10-21 17:31:00 PDT/-0700 <@      treed> Haha.
2012-10-21 17:31:18 PDT/-0700 <@      treed> I think the only unfilled hole is the "did they just forget their shit?"
2012-10-21 17:31:28 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> *nod*
2012-10-21 17:31:36 PDT/-0700 <@      treed> Which I guess could just be "Yeah, we didn't send that many people through. You fuckers know basic survival."
2012-10-21 17:31:40 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> Yeah, the guys you start with know shit, but it's all like wilderness survival shit.
2012-10-21 17:31:56 PDT/-0700 <@      treed> And maybe you can get bonuses later like the empire randomly decides to send you some scientist or whatever.
2012-10-21 17:32:00 PDT/-0700 <@      treed> If you're doing particularly well.
2012-10-21 17:32:15 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> Because of the cooldown time on the portal, and sending people through is really expensive, and there's like a billion places to send people and half of them are in the middle of stars or whatever.
2012-10-21 17:32:23 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> So it's really a *total* crapshoot on the part of the empire.
2012-10-21 17:32:29 PDT/-0700 <@      treed> Which has kind of a feel like the immigration thing with Colonization.
2012-10-21 17:32:40 PDT/-0700 <@      treed> Where when you go back to Europe, some dudes will just be standing on the dock waiting to emigrate.
2012-10-21 17:32:48 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> 21-17:31 <@      treed> And maybe you can get bonuses later like the empire randomly decides to send you some scientist or whatever. -- Yeah, they do send you through with the means to make phone-home device.
2012-10-21 17:32:49 PDT/-0700 <@      treed> Sometimes you get lucky and it's a dude skilled in something you need.
2012-10-21 17:33:02 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> So if you survive at all they start sending people through after you.
2012-10-21 17:33:03 PDT/-0700 <@      treed> Other times you have to hire a skilled guy to fill a hole.
2012-10-21 17:33:14 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> *nod* to all that.
2012-10-21 17:33:19 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> DF has some similar mechanics, too.
2012-10-21 17:33:55 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> But the big advantage you have over all the other scouting parties is that the PC *knows shit*.
2012-10-21 17:34:07 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> Being immortal and wiht infinite memory/skill capacity.
2012-10-21 17:34:16 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> So you can start leapfrogging a lot of tech stuff eventually.
2012-10-21 17:34:41 PDT/-0700 <    djanatyn> neptunepink: umm okay then one sec
2012-10-21 17:34:48 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> treed: This has helped me fill in the situation in my head a lot; thanks.  In particular about the scouting parties being hail marys.
2012-10-21 17:35:23 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> "Squad for portal 37682, take your places.  Here's your will; sign it.  Good luck *snicker*" kind a thing.
2012-10-21 17:35:32 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> I'm thinking like a 1-in-100-or-less success rate.
2012-10-21 17:35:36 PDT/-0700 <@      treed> *nod*
2012-10-21 17:35:52 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> Oh, there was a role playing game like that.
2012-10-21 17:35:59 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> Same thing, except SF; a friend told me a bout it.
2012-10-21 17:36:33 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> They'd teleport you to a random world with the parts to mak ea portal back, but first you had to survive Arbitrary Shit long enough to build it, and you needed to scrounge som eshit locally, and so on.
2012-10-21 17:36:52 PDT/-0700 <    rlpowell> So the people tey sent were literally engineered slave species (i.e. furries :D)